NPR’s Mary Louise Kelly speaks with Kelly Degnan, the US Ambassador to Georgia, about serving the country as war ravages Ukraine.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
And I’m Mary Louise Kelly in Tbilisi, Georgia, which has uncomfortably much in common with Ukraine. Neither belong to NATO. Neither belong to the EU. Both are former Soviet republics, and both have a history of invasion by Russia. So what is at stake here in Georgia as war ravages Ukraine? And what role does the US play in ensuring that Georgia’s history of Russian invasion does not repeat itself? These are questions we will ask our next guest right behind these big gates. We just pulled up at the US Embassy here in Tbilisi. Let’s go inside and meet the ambassador.
Inside, we settle into the Embassy’s media room, where US Ambassador to Georgia Kelly Degnan has been holding Zoom meetings during the pandemic. And we dive in.
What is at stake for Georgia? What should we Americans who don’t know much about Georgia know?
KELLY DEGNAN: The Georgians are watching what is happening in Ukraine, I would say, with a special pain and a special perspective. You yourself were invaded by Russia 14 years ago. Georgia has a long history of Russian invasions, stretching back centuries. But this one from 2008 is still very raw for many Georgians today. This is also a moment of opportunity for Georgia. I think Sun Tzu said that out of chaos comes opportunity. And here is an opportunity for this deeply polarized country to unite, to unite around the principles that – and shared values - Georgia has loved for centuries.
KELLY: Let me pick up on something you just said. You just described this as a deeply polarized country. And without getting too much into the weeds of Georgian politics, right now there is this, I think it’s fair to call it that, odd situation where Georgia is threatening to kill its own president for supporting Ukraine Sue. What’s happening?
DEGNAN: President Zurabishvili really represented this country very well. She has expressed the support of the Georgian people for the Ukrainians – for what they are going through, for sovereignty, for territorial integrity, both internationally…
KELLY: She’s flown to various European capitals to say look; we Georgians, we stand by Europe and the world…
DEGNAN: That’s right.
KELLY: …For Ukraine.
DEGNAN: And domestically, where I think there’s a multitude of feelings here — both the concern of being the target of Russian retaliation or aggression, and this fierce commitment to freedom and watching the courage of the Ukrainian people.
KELLY: So why does the government – by which I mean the ruling party and the prime minister – want to sue them?
DEGNAN: Here’s another moment where they can come together, where they have to come together. And that was the President’s message in her March 14 speech to Parliament. Only Russia will benefit if the Georgians are divided. And that was her strong message. As I said before, she seriously represented this country at home and abroad and called on the entire Georgian people and certainly their political leadership to come together. And I hope her message will be heard.
Kelly: Yes. I don’t want to dwell on divisions, but I’m trying to understand and trying to help the American listening audience understand what’s going on here. There is this situation where the President and the Prime Minister are arguing about how close Georgia should be to Ukraine. Is that fair to say?
DEGNAN: Yes.
Kelly: OK. I noticed a couple of other things – just know that in the few days we’ve been here, we’ve heard that President Zelenskyy of Ukraine wants to address Parliament here. And Georgia said no. Georgian volunteers fighting to Ukraine want to help defend Ukraine. And their plane was not allowed to take off. What is inform? I know you don’t speak for the Prime Minister or the ruling party here in Georgia. But how do you understand these divisions in society here?
DEGNAN: In international forums such as the UN, the OSCE, the Council of Europe, Georgia has spoken out fairly forcefully in favor of Ukraine and against Russian aggression. That’s why they speak out and stand with the United States and the West at this critical time. There is a balance that I think we are seeing in the government, which is to ensure that Georgia does not face retaliatory action from Russia. It is their responsibility as a government and they represent the views of part of the population. So Georgia is taking the steps it can. And we have encouraged the government to explore ways in which Georgia can show its support for Ukraine and its support for the basic security principles at stake.
KELLY: The balancing act you described — in short, Georgia risks angering Russia if it stands too firmly on Ukraine’s side or leans too far west toward the EU, putting itself in jeopardy again to embark?
DEGNAN: Nobody wants Georgia to be the next target. And I think what we’re seeing is balancing. At the same time, this government submitted an early application for membership of the European Union. By submitting this application, Georgia has taken a very important step on its way to becoming a member of the European Union. There is a lot to do, a lot of reform, a lot of hard work. But this is the moment – once again, as President Zurabishvili said, this is the moment when the country can come together and truly embark on the road to European and Atlantic integration together.
KELLY: Zooming out of Georgia, are you in touch with your colleague in Moscow, US Ambassador John Sullivan?
DEGNAN: Not regularly. We are in contact with his team.
Kelly: Yes.
DEGNAN: We are in contact with our colleagues in – from the embassy in Kyiv. We support…
KELLY: Asking about these reports that he’s just been warned that the relationship is about to break up.
DEGNAN: That’s one of the reasons why I don’t have regular contact. He has his hands full managing this relationship, this very important relationship between the United States and Russia. But we support both the Moscow Embassy and the Kyiv Embassy in important ways. For example, we handle much of their consular affairs to ensure American citizens continue to receive the assistance they need abroad. We are looking at other ways we can support these missions, including sometimes supporting Ukrainian colleagues who used to work at the Kyiv embassy and who may now be transferred to Tbilisi.
KELLY: How would it affect your work if diplomatic relations between Moscow and Washington were severed?
DEGNAN: Georgia doesn’t have diplomatic relations with Russia, so there are no formal relations here. So our connection is probably less pronounced than in other countries. I think the most important thing is to continue our work to help Georgia find new partners and markets so that they can reduce their dependence on a country that throughout the centuries has never stood up for Georgia in moments of need. Georgians know Russians very well.
KELLY: Ambassador, thank you.
DEANN: Thank you. It’s wonderful to have you here in Georgia. You are here in time for the 30th anniversary of our diplomatic relations. The United States is very, very proud of what we have been able to accomplish together with Georgia over the past 20 years. And we are very excited about what awaits us in the coming years.
KELLY: Well, happy anniversary.
DEANN: Thank you.
KELLY: Thanks for taking the time.
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