NPR’s Mary Louise Kelly speaks to Georgian President Salome Zurabichvili, who is threatening the Georgian government to sue her for supporting Ukraine.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
*** And I’m Mary Louise Kelly in Tbilisi, Georgia, where so many people we’ve met have told us that they feel the war in Ukraine is their war, their fight. Well, because Georgia has also fought Russia, most recently in 2008 when Russia attacked the small country on the south-eastern edge of Europe. Polls show that people here want their leaders to do more, stand by Ukraine, support Ukraine, and their President, Salome Surabichvili, agrees, which has actually landed her in quite a bit of trouble. We will ask them about it. We’re on our way to her apartment to meet her.
At night, the presidential palace is brightly lit – Georgian and Ukrainian flags line the front steps side by side. Inside, we are shown her office.
Hello – Mary Louise Kelly, NPR – nice to meet you.
We sit and realize that tomorrow will be a month since the invasion, and I ask President Surabichvili for her impression of how things are going.
SALOME ZOURABICHVILI: I think the first surprise is probably for the Russian leadership, for Vladimir Putin himself, who probably didn’t think it would take that long, who expected something completely different. And in fact he got a completely different picture. He really united the Ukrainian people in a way that was probably not expected. He united Europeans in a way you didn’t expect. And he was not able to get the rejection (ph) of the Ukrainian leadership through the show of force, through this aggression.
KELLY: You have been very strong on the need to be in solidarity with Ukraine. Many people around the world have spoken out about the need to show solidarity with Ukraine. Not very many people get sued for it. But that is the view that faces you. What’s happening?
ZOURABICHVILI: Well, that’s Georgian domestic policy…
Kelly: Yes.
ZOURABICHVILI: …which is very difficult to explain. So I won’t be sued.
KELLY: But the point here is — just to give a bit of background for the folks in America who haven’t followed every twist and turn of Georgian politics — right after the invasion, you went to Paris and Brussels to say, we must stand with Ukraine. And a few weeks later the government here, the ruling party, said that the trip was unauthorized and unconstitutional. Was it?
ZOURABICHVILI: Well, interpretation is always open to debate. The Georgian Constitution restricts many powers of the President, but at the same time contains the duty of the President and everyone to do the utmost and possible to facilitate, encourage and accelerate European and European-European development. Atlantic integration of Georgia. So it depends on which one you look at. And again, I’m not too worried.
KELLY: I was going to ask if this lawsuit, the prospect of a lawsuit, was an attempt to silence you, and it sounds…
ZOURABICHVILI: Well, that wouldn’t work (laughter).
KELLY: …like, A – you’re not that concerned, and B – the fact that I asked you about it in a nationally broadcast interview suggests it didn’t work if that was the effort.
ZOURABICHVILI: No. It did not work. And it doesn’t work. And I do a lot of interviews because I think it’s very important at this stage that Georgia is on the map for two reasons. One is that we should have all the attention, because of course there are also risks for Georgia, although not immediately, I would say. But we are in a place, geostrategically, in a place that is constantly – and you saw that – under constant pressure from Russia. But also on the positive side, because these new opportunities will open up and we will live in a different world, I think it is important that Georgia is present to take advantage of all the opportunities that will be possible.
KELLY: Explain why not every political leader in Georgia could be so open, why some could be wary of angering Russia?
ZOURABICHVILI: Well, actually I think maybe it’s a personality issue too. Clearly…
KELLY: I mean, the key dilemma for Georgia, which is the risk of having a very…
ZOURABICHWILI: Yes.
KELLY: …bigger neighbor…
ZOURABICHWILI: And I don’t disagree. I mean, it’s also a matter of presentation. I am not fundamentally opposed to the fact that in Georgia, an occupied country – and you have seen how close it is to the capital – we have to be more careful with our statements and our positions than, say, the Baltic States, which are now under Article 5 of NATO fall. So we find ourselves in this dilemma of not confronting Russia, at least not provoking Russian reactions, but at the same time preserving our principles, namely solidarity with Ukraine, our closeness to the European Union and NATO.
KELLY: But it’s interesting to hear that you’re talking about this moment as an opportunity for Georgia. I mean, it’s obviously a horrible moment. Nobody wants to see…
ZOURABICHWILI: Yes. Nobody is …
KELLY: …the suffering we see in Ukraine. But what opportunity do you see for your country at this moment?
ZOURABICHWILI: Well, Ukraine has indeed opened a window with the European Union in the most visible way. And indeed, Ukraine presented the first – its candidacy for the European Union, which was not expected in the near future, followed by Moldova and Georgia.
KELLY: You just applied this month…
ZOURABICHWILI: Yes…
KELLY: … to join the EU.
ZOURABICHVILI: …Right after Ukraine. And there is a serious rethinking of how these countries, which are so close together and are under serious pressure in terms of security, should be treated. But that will be the case after the war, this discussion. And everyone has to be ready. And that means, of course, that we have to do our share of the work for the reforms that are still necessary. It’s not about the door standing open without demands and goals…
Kelly: Right.
ZOURABICHVILI: …For those who need to be fulfilled.
KELLY: But it sounds like you’re saying that events in Ukraine are completely out of your control but will, one way or another, very much change the course of events here in Georgia, in the country.
ZOURABICHVILI: You will change the course of things for everyone. No one will be the same after this war, whenever that may be and whatever the circumstances of the war’s end, neither the United States nor Europe. Most countries will be changed after this war. We all know that there will be economic consequences for everyone and the decisions that will be made afterwards will also affect all countries in different ways.
KELLY: Salome Zurabishvili is the President of Georgia. Madam President, thank you very much.
ZOURABICHWILI: Thank you.
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